SGN Member Spotlight – Terence O’Sullivan – Employment Solicitor

Solicitors Growth Network | Member Spotlight Interview

In this edition of our Solicitor Spotlight series, SGN founder Catherine Tobin sits down with employment law solicitor Terence O’Sullivan. Based in Cork, Terence has built one of the only practices in Cork city and county dedicated specifically to employment law. A former president of the Southern Law Association, CEDR-accredited mediator, and council member of the SLA, Terence shares his expertise, his approach to clients, and what keeps him going after more than 35 years in practice.

Getting Into Law

Catherine: You qualified as a solicitor back in 1989. What first drew you to law, and was employment law always the area you wanted to focus on?

Terence: “Mum and Dad were very ambitious for me to go to college. There was actually nothing else happening in the jobs market for anyone at the time. I went straight from secondary school to UCC. I was bright, and I knew I didn’t want to be a doctor or dentist. So next one down the line was law.

As regards employment law, my dad was a union man, and I would hear all of his stories at the table. My brothers worked as tradesmen and as fitters, as did he, so I was hearing all of this in dispatches. It kind of filtered down. I didn’t know really anything about employment law when I first started, but that’s one of the reasons I got into it.”

How Employment Law Has Changed

Catherine: How has the practice of employment law changed most dramatically over the course of your career, and what’s driven those changes?

Terence: “Knowledge is everything. Citizens Advice now is something that I lean into quite a lot, because the answers are there, and people know their rights too. Employment law is just one of those areas where I started to specialise, and others realised – some of the best colleague referrals I get are from people who realise they don’t know about employment law and they shouldn’t dabble. It’s become something that can sustain me successfully in business, and I’m good at it.”

Catherine: Do you enjoy the work?

Terence: “I do, because probably the most rewarding thing is that every day is different, every week is different. When I started my own business in 2007, I did some conveyancing, and I hated it – and as a consequence, I was very poor at it. I just needed to get an income. Then over time, I’ve just let things go and made referrals to others in certain areas. To be a specialist in the area and to work in it 100% makes it an awful lot easier, because you’re not dabbling.”

Building a Specialist Practice in Cork

Catherine: You’ve built a practice that’s become one of the only firms in Cork city and county dedicated specifically to employment law. Was that a deliberate decision, and what did that journey look like?

Terence: “It was 100% deliberate, and it had to be. My colleagues in Dublin have a much easier ask, because there’s just so many more employment law opportunities. I was never going to live anywhere other than Cork, so I had to tell people I was the employment lawyer in Cork. That’s not me saying I’m the best employment lawyer in Cork, but you’ve got to tag yourself with some degree of confidence – and then you become what you say you are. You say you are, then you become. If I can put it like that.””

Catherine: You speak nationwide on employment law and have given seminars to other solicitors. How do you build that level of expertise and recognition?

Terence: “You’ve got to work at it. I offered my services to the local bar association, the Southern Law Association. I even set up an Employment Law Committee, which has never been done here, just in Dublin. I spoke freely in my free time, but very deliberately, to say – look, you’re listening to me here now, and you’re hearing that I know about this. You have to put in those hard yards. Colleagues will tell whether there’s any reality to what you’re saying when you’re standing up in front of them and speaking about these issues.”

Catherine: Does that process of teaching and speaking help you stay up to date in your own practice?

Terence: “You lean into all those things you’ve learned over the years. I found when I’ve been speaking, I learn something every time I speak about something. I’ve gone to other colleagues’ seminars as well – the same thing. You’re constantly learning. You realise you’re not a finished article.”

What Employment Law Covers

Catherine: For someone who has never needed a solicitor before, can you explain in simple terms what employment law actually covers and when someone might need your help?

Terence: “It covers all of the rights you have in the workplace, realistically. You will need a solicitor when you feel you’ve been unfairly treated. And trust me, people know when they’re being unfairly treated. Anything that affects your ongoing employment – we all need to work to pay our rent and pay our mortgage – so anything that might interfere with that is a serious impact on you, your lifestyle, your family. You’ll know when you need to consult an employment lawyer. You know you’re under attack. The number of times somebody will say to me, ‘This is the kind of situation I’m in at the moment, and I might be paranoid.’ You’re not paranoid.”

Current Trends

Catherine: What are the most common situations you see employees coming to you about right now? Are there any patterns you’re noticing?

Terence: “Redundancy and collective redundancy is very hot. You’ll only hear it in passing – Amazon or others laying off staff – but I see it on the ground. I’m not a data analyst, and I don’t know if lower-level admin jobs are being ruled out by AI. I certainly see enough of them to register, and I’m getting more enquiries about those now than anything else at the moment.”

The Workplace Relations Commission

Catherine: From an employer’s perspective, what are the most frequent mistakes businesses make that land them in front of the Workplace Relations Commission?

Terence: “It’s a very trite answer, but if you’re walking through the door of the Workplace Relations Commission, you’ve already made mistakes. Stay the hell out of the WRC. I’ve particular views about it. I’ve been before different things over the years – the Rights Commissioner, the Employment Appeals Tribunal, the Equality Tribunal, the Labour Court – and I see the current iteration of the WRC as a kind of busted flush. I’m not alone in that view. I attend the Employment Bar Association – the barristers’ employment group – and there’s so much concern about being before the WRC.

If you’re walking through the door, then you’ve made the mistakes. Stay the hell out of the WRC so far as possible. That’s certainly my practice now, which may seem unusual to others, but it doesn’t work well for either party. That’s the common view of employment lawyers like me.”

Unfair Dismissal

Catherine: Can you walk us through what unfair dismissal actually means in practice?

Terence: “Being terminated for a number of reasons. Twelve months is a very important dateline for any employee, because once you get to 12 months, you get heaps and heaps of rights, not least to be protected from unfair dismissal.

The other one is what I call a redundancy dismissal, where somebody has been dumped out of the employment on the grounds that it’s a redundancy when it’s not. In those situations, I kick in with trying to avoid the WRC. I kind of escalate from the point of view of the employee to the level of an injunction, because I’d rather go to court than go to the WRC. It’s a smart way for an employer to try and dismiss somebody, but they usually get it badly wrong. So hence they come into my sphere.”

Acting Quickly on Redundancy

Catherine: What should an employee do the moment they suspect their redundancy might not be genuine?

Terence: “Honestly, consult an employment lawyer, because the next steps you take – for example, to really ratchet up the process to an injunction – can give you a lot of impetus that you wouldn’t have otherwise. If you do nothing and fail to consult with me, and you’re then dismissed on grounds of redundancy, the next right you have is to bring the matter before the WRC, and by that time, you’ve diminished my game plan. If you feel it’s not genuine, you’re probably right. The time to consult is now – or yesterday. Not tomorrow.”

Catherine: Is there a timeframe after which it’s too late?

Terence: “Six months. If there’s been any kind of employment breach, you have to file within six months with the WRC. Sometimes people think about the employer – ‘He’s been good to me up to now, trust him to do it’ – and then you wait till after the six months and your breach, I can’t do anything with it. If in doubt, file. You can always withdraw a complaint afterwards, but get it in now.”

Workplace Bullying

Catherine: Workplace bullying and harassment cases can be incredibly sensitive. How do you approach those with clients, and what do people need to know before they come forward?

Terence: “This was a big part of my work. I’ve experienced it personally myself, and I’ve specialised in the area for years and delivered seminars on the topic. But I honestly conclude now that there’s a lot of talk about bullying, but not a lot is done to prevent it. It’s also treated differently with regard to the rights you might have before the WRC and the courts. I think lip service is paid to it, and I’d love if more was done, because it’s a huge part of the workplace environment.

Particularly when you’re dealing with some of the non-Irish companies, who sometimes don’t understand that we’ve got this body of rights here as employees. They feel that if they want Sean out, Sean’s gone. ‘Why is Sean even still talking to me?’ Unfortunately, I think we’ve gone a bit backwards with regard to work we’ve done for those who are afflicted by bullying in the workplace. Over time, what happened was companies adopted things like dignity at work policies, but they use these internal processes to kind of manage out the issue. Commonly, once you have an internal process like a dignity at work or bullying policy, the employer gets to manage it in their favour, in my experience. There’s huge frustration on the part of the employee when I’m saying, ‘Look, you’ve made an internal complaint for which I can’t play a role. I’m distinctly excluded, and you have to see all those out before you might say I can’t work here anymore – I have been constructively dismissed.’

Any employment lawyer will tell you, the worst case you’re dealt with before for unfair dismissal is that of constructive unfair dismissal. There’s a feeling before the WRC that if you’ve left a good job, that’s on you. That’s why I sound very negative, but my take on it is – a lot of talk, a lot of policies, but not a lot of concern for the person who has been bullied in the workplace.”

Data Protection as a Tool

Catherine: Data protection has become a much bigger issue in the employment space. Can you give a sense of how that’s showing up in your caseload?

Terence: “This is actually a positive – it’s a huge tool in the armoury of any employment lawyer. It’s got a huge nuisance aspect to it as well, without even litigating. You’re flagging to the employer, ‘I’m here, I’m engaged, I’m external, and I want this person’s personal data.’ They go, ‘Why is the lawyer engaged with us?’

Employers can’t stand the rights given to employees – the right to their personal data. But it’s a huge tool, and one of the positives that’s happened in employment law is that we have it available to us. There’s that old saying that there’s many ways to skin a cat – well, there’s many ways to bring the opposition to the table, and this is just one of the ways we do it.”

Catherine: Is data protection an area you’d work on in isolation?

Terence: “No, you wouldn’t work in it in isolation. You’re working it in conjunction with everything else. If you’re at the WRC, you file your complaint, you will then make a data subject access request – you do those almost in conjunction. You’re trying to convince the employer to come and talk to us, and we’ll all be better for avoiding the WRC experience. It’s a means to an end, really, more than the end in itself.”

The Power of Mediation

Catherine: You are a CEDR-accredited mediator. Can you explain what mediation is and why it might be a better route than going to court?

Terence: “CEDR is a body that approves mediators under their auspices. I did their course back in 2006. They’re really well thought of in terms of mediation – at the forefront of it. UK-based organisation. I loved it, because when you talk about everything else, you’re kind of breaking up the party, whereas mediation is bringing us all together and saying, ‘Look, it didn’t work out, but can we sort it?’

That’s been huge in employment law, because the best deals I’ve ever done are behind closed doors. The best ones I can’t talk about, because nobody ever saw it – it wasn’t in open court. You feel an awful lot better about yourself, because you were part of a solution directly, and you achieve the best result for your client.

I’ve acted for employers, employees, and I’ve been the mediator. If you spoke to any employment lawyer out there, they’d say the very same – my best results are all silent and unseen. We see the value of mediation. Even if I think it’s going to be a failure, I engage in it because it doesn’t hurt. From a fee perspective, it’s a much better ask than just going to war.”

Catherine: What does a successful mediation outcome actually look like?

Terence: “One that they both agree to, that they both sign up to. Adjudication is just that – somebody with a position like an adjudicator or a judge decides, whether they like it or not. Mediation can only lead to a solution when both buy into that solution. People leave it sometimes going, ‘Well, I got kind of 75% of what I wanted,’ but the result for adjudication is zero or 100 and there’s rarely anywhere in between.

I remember one mediation early on – my client – we were 19 hours at the mediation. The guy was tired, slow to get up. But I walked out with him and he was like pounding the air. He floated. You don’t see that with people often, and it sticks with you. As a lawyer, achieving results like that is rare. Even if you get a result when you’ve gone through a battle of three or four days at the WRC, both parties are damaged by the process.”

Catherine: Are there situations where you would actively steer a client away from mediation and towards litigation?

Terence: “No, never. It would be my first call, for all the reasons I’ve stated. It just can’t hurt. Go into it, explain what it means – that’s very important – and it’s something you must buy in to if you want to solve the issue. It’s not my resolution, it’s yours. I always take mediation.”

The Client Experience

Catherine: When someone walks through your door, often in a really stressful moment of their life, what do you want them to feel by the end of that first conversation?

Terence: “It’s easier said than done, because sometimes they can be so stressed that they’re not listening. But if I get that feeling that I can engage with them and I can help them, that’s what I say – ‘I think I can help you here.’ Sometimes it’s a conversation where I can honestly say, ‘I don’t think I can help you here.’ But if I can, you just know by the degree of their upset, you know by the facts they’ve given you, whether you can help or not. And that’s one thing I will say – ‘I think I can help you.'”

Catherine: What’s the most important thing people misunderstand about working with a solicitor in an employment dispute?

Terence: “Fees. With employment law and family law, very commonly, we can win, but we won’t get an award in respect of fees. Whatever result we achieve, our clients will pay our fees. As much as I tell them in bold terms from the start, I don’t think they take it in, because in their collective beliefs, lawyers will be paid and the loser pays the lawyers’ fees. As much as I say it in very clear terms – there’s still a feeling that lawyers are free, or because lawyers are told in other situations that they’re free.”

Time Limits and Process

Catherine: What would you say to someone who’s sitting on a situation, unsure whether to act?

Terence: “File your complaint now. When you get the acknowledgement, there’s a number there – come back to me. If you don’t come back with the number, there’s no point coming back to me. File now.”

Catherine: Can you give a sense of what the typical process looks like, from that first call to a resolved outcome?

Terence: “If somebody rings me and says they’re owed 800 euro in pay, I’ll honestly say, ‘You’re better off filing under the Payment of Wages Act at the WRC. You can’t afford any lawyer, including me.’ But if I know it’s going to be life-changing, career-defining – those sorts of things – I involve myself. I review their documentation, I consult with them.

Phone consultations are particularly effective because I’ve got my two screens in front of me and I can create the documents. In times past, you’d meet the client and you’re engaging but you don’t have access to the data you need. A phone consult or a Zoom consult is a very efficient way for me to do my business. I take the information, review the documentation, consult with them, and give them a discussion around next steps fairly early in the process. Then I’m there by their side from that point onwards. Generally I say to them – don’t say anything to anyone about anything except me, going forward.”

The Profession and Referrals

Catherine: For solicitors who don’t specialise in employment law, what are the clear signals that a client needs to be referred to a specialist like yourself?

Terence: “They’ll ask questions that you just don’t have an idea in replying to. A few years ago, that lesson wasn’t being learned – you had people dabbling. But I don’t get that anymore. I’ve got named colleagues who refer, who have really good practices in Cork, and they just say, ‘That’s employment law. That’s your man. Get on to Terence.’ I think they know now. They realise – stay away from this. There’s better ways of making money.”

Catherine: How do you prefer other solicitors to approach a referral to you?

Terence: “Great to get a referral. Firstly, when the colleague is named, because that’s not always the case. Sometimes I learn a month after – the client doesn’t tell you. If I know it’s come from Sean, Sean’s a decent guy. I know he’s going to have clients he can rely on. That’s a good reference. Equally, I’ll be very honest – there’s colleagues who, over the years, have been guilty of the hospital pass. If you need me to explain that, it’s basically where it’s a terrible client with a terrible referral, and they’ve just passed it on to me. But it rarely happens now. I get great referrals from great colleagues who know they don’t know this, and that’s good.”

One Piece of Advice

Catherine: If you could give one piece of advice to an employee or employer in Ireland right now – someone who hasn’t yet had a legal issue but might one day – what would it be?

Terence: “The minute you feel that you’re under attack, you’re under attack. It’s not paranoia. People constantly engage me – employers and employees – and they know that something’s changed. Communications are hostile, on the attack, on either side. If that happens, that’s the one thing I’d say.”

The Personal Side

Catherine: After more than 35 years in practice, what genuinely excites you about this work?

Terence: “The fact that it’s different. Every day is different, every week is different. To be challenged every day, to step back and say, ‘Is this the right thing to do today?’ – that’s a huge part of the satisfaction I have in the workplace.”

Catherine: Do you get the Sunday night blues?

Terence: “I’ve been self-employed since 2007 – what does that make it, 19 years – and I never look back. I do understand that as an employee, I may have had that. But no, I don’t.”

Catherine: Outside of work, how do you actually switch off?

Terence: “I switch off fully. Pickleball – it’s actually hugely popular. I was in the Munster Open last weekend and I took silver in the mixed doubles. I like to be competitive, and when I’m competing, you don’t think of anything else. That’s the real pleasure of it.

The other thing you don’t know about me is that I’m a huge live music fan, particularly of the post-punk genre. I go to a lot of concerts, and Cork city is a great place for it. I actually promoted a gig last October – there’s a Cork band called Digital, a tribute to Joy Division and New Order. I promoted the gig and it went very well. I saw them in a tiny venue and thought they should be in a better venue, so I put them on in Crane Lane. Live music – particularly post-punk, because I grew up during that phase – I just love it. I forget everything else when I’m enjoying music.”

Catherine: What does a typical Monday morning look like for you?

Terence: “Coffee beckons. I have a particular love of coffee – very little other vices, I’d hasten to add. But I love my coffee, and it’s a necessity in the morning, just as oxygen.”

Catherine: If you hadn’t become a solicitor, what do you think you’d have ended up doing?

Terence: “My brothers and my father were fitters – mechanical fitters – and I am hopeless with anything to do with hands or tasks. So nothing manual. I do remember seeing, when I was in college, Micheál Martin actually attending UCC – the Fianna Fáil meetings – and I wonder what this guy was doing in politics. I’d love to have been a teacher, specifically an English teacher. And if I could have done what he did – become a teacher and then veer into politics, on the basis you can go back at any stage if it doesn’t work out – I’d have done it. But my school never gave me that preparation. So that’s probably what I would say – give politics a whirl.”

Catherine: What is something about you that would genuinely surprise clients who only know you in a professional context?

Terence: “It’s the music, really. It’s funny – people who see me in the music setting have no idea I’m a lawyer. Which is great, you know. It’s a division which suits me fine.”

Catherine: Do you play any instruments?

Terence: “I started playing bass four weeks ago. I just bought a bass. A good friend of mine who goes to gigs with me – a group of us going back – we had bands back in the day where we couldn’t play instruments, and that was particularly acceptable back then. But I picked up bass just four weeks ago, and it’s gone okay. The idea is that I play live at some stage.”

Cork – Home and Always Will Be

Catherine: Cork people have fierce pride in where they’re from. How much does being from Cork shape who you are, and is there anywhere else you’d ever consider living?

Terence: “No, in short. One of the reasons is we’ve got a city that really isn’t a city – it’s actually a big town. I can drive into a gig, park up, walk 100 metres, and I’m back to the car and home in 20 minutes. There’s no other city like that. I’ve lived in Dublin for five years, I was an apprentice there. There’s no other city that’s so amenable to you. We complain about traffic – we don’t have traffic. We complain about parking – we’ve plenty of parking. You wouldn’t be anywhere else, to be honest with you. I think a lot of people who come here and have never lived in Ireland realise very quickly that there’s nowhere else to live other than Cork.”

Terence O’Sullivan is the principal of his employment law practice in Cork. He can be contacted online through his website – tjos.ie. For more member spotlights and legal insights, visit the SGN blog.